I'd be curious to hear what you all think about the new calendar introduced by the Ecumenical Patriarchate back in 1924. It seems to have badly divided the Church and caused schisms. What is the likelihood of this problem being resolved, in what way, and how soon?
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Philadelphia
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Mon, August 14, 2006 - 5:50 AMI haven't done much research on the the reasons for the change, but it does seem strange to me that they changed everything expect Pascha. So, I guess they shifted all the fixed dates but kept the traditional Pascha dates. My wife is Russian, so she is used the old calendar date for Christmas etc. Was it changed to try to "normalize" the Church and bring it closer the the secular norm? This would seem like a very bad thing, and I think this is the accusation from the Old Calendarist - that the NC's sold out to secularism or to ecumenism, seeking to reunite with Catholics/Anglicans/Protestants. OC's seem to see ecumenism as a one way street, it's our way or the highway. -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Mon, August 14, 2006 - 6:55 AMExactly correct. The "new" calendar was introduced to make the Orthodox more like the Romans. The bishop who decreed it was also a Mason, if you can believe that. It is a dark day in the Orthodox world and something that should never have been done.
That being said, if it is used in your church, so be it. No one will lose their salvation over a calendar. Let the Lord correct it in His time, we have enough to worry about with our own sin.
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Mon, August 14, 2006 - 11:29 AMThe usually stated reason for the change was astronomical accuracy. The real reason probably had more to do with ecumenist rapprochement. At any rate, it may not be heresy but was it worth causing so much havoc? Doesn't seem like it. -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Tue, August 15, 2006 - 4:34 AMI agree. It wasn't worth the trouble. We Orthodox don't like to change things.
Q: How many Orthodox Christians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Change? What do you mean, Change? -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Tue, August 15, 2006 - 8:45 AMIt is unfortunate, that we claim unity, but yet can't share in everything. I celebrated the Dormition today because my parish is Greek and NC, but you may not celebrate it for another 2 weeks (or is 13 days I can't remember). For Christmas, I wish we were OC - anything to divorce ourselves from the blantant materialism & secularism that dominate Western "Xmas".
I was wondering the other day, what might have become of Orthodxy if it hadn't been for the persecution of the Muslims and Soviets. Did these times of persecution actual help perseve the faith during a time of rampent materialism in the West???
Another thing I struggle with is sharing my joy - espicially with my Protestant friends. I have yet to find the right words. They usually get defensive, but I keep trying because I don't know how to stop. I seriously feel like I'm overflowing! -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Tue, August 15, 2006 - 10:40 AMWe had a priest come to our parish because his daughter was marrying a guy from our church. He had been an Baptist pastor before he became an Orthodox priest. He said it the best way I have heard it.
"The Baptists led me to Christ, then Christ led me to the Orthodox Church".
I think that tells the story. -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Tue, August 15, 2006 - 10:54 AMI'm Russian Catholic, which is not exactly Orthodox, at least from many points of view. My parish in New York is NC, the one in Dublin is OC, one priest on a mailing list serves two parishes in Canada, one NC and one OC. I don't envy him much!
I find my evangelical college students quite open to the Eastern point of view once they understand how Christocentric it all is. They tend to confuse Orthodoxy with Catholicism (I know, I know), which they have real and legitimate problems with. -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Wed, August 16, 2006 - 4:08 AMIs that the same as Byzantine Catholic? Or is that the Uniate (sp?) church?
The Orthodox Church in America (OCA) came from Uniate roots. The priest who came over was Uniate, and he presented himself to the local Catholic bishop. The bishop didn't like a married Uniate priest coming to town, and refused to honor his ordination. The Catholics allowed the Uniate priests to marry so that the Uniate church would look, feel, and smell like Orthodox, but be loyal to the Pope. The guy then went to the Orthodox bishop and took his whole entourage with him. They quit the Romans and became Orthodox en masse. Today, he's a saint, St. Alexis Toth.
There are two Orthodox churches. The Spiritual one, and the Political one. I love the spiritual Church, but the political church I avoid as much as possible. -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Wed, August 16, 2006 - 7:48 PMWorse than that, actually. He was an unmarried priest, a widower, who had been married when he was ordained! Actually, neither Catholics nor Orthodox permit priests to marry, but they do ordain married men, though the Roman Catholics generally don't, except in the case of married Protestant pastors who convert.
The term Byzantine Catholic Church is now used officially by the Ruthenian Metropolia, so the other Catholic churches of the Constantinopolitan rite (such the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church) don't.
The term Uniate refers to the agreements by which two groups of Orthodox came into communion with Rome when their lands were conquered by Poland and Austria. It is often used as an insult -- even Eastern Catholics sometimes condemn what they call Uniatism.
The first Russian Catholic Church was a parish of Old Believers who entered into communion with Rome, taking their inspiration from Vladimir Soloviev and Fr. Nikolai Tolstoy. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Old/ new calendar
Thu, August 17, 2006 - 4:12 AMSo, you understand why your students would have legitimate problems with Roman Catholic doctrine, etc, but you yourself submit to the pope?
There has got to be an interesting story behind that one! -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Thu, August 31, 2006 - 6:42 AMI was arguing with some Seventh Day Adventist (Sabbatarians) about the celebration of the Lord's Day - Saturday vesus Sunday. They kept wanting to go back to the OT and maintain that Saturday tradition and I wasn't able to sway them, but then later I was thinking about it some more and I wondered why they choose to embrace the Saturday Sabboth "because it was changed by the western church" (they accused Constantine) yet reject the old calendar. I mean they think they are truly going back to the early church of the 1st Century, wouldn't they need to embrace the old calendar too? Just an interesting thought, that I haven't had time to research... -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Fri, September 1, 2006 - 5:08 AMOne of the things that I really love about being Orthodox is that I no longer have to argue with people who don't agree with me!
My spiritual father told me "We know where the Church is, but we do not know where the Church is not" meaning, we know our Orthodox faith is accepted by God, but we have no idea what else he may or may not accept. Actually, I hope he accepts them all, but I am not going to bet my salvation on any of it by straying from the Orthodox church.
When I was charismatic we used to pride ourselves on having the arguments for all the so-called "false religions", never even thinking that we might be false ourselves. Amazing how decieved you can be if you let yourself go. -
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Re: Old/ new calendar
Fri, September 1, 2006 - 5:17 AMI like that quote - you have a good spiritual father:)
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