So, after all the hoopla about what the Pope said about Muslims, I had to read the lecture and decide for myself. I think he could have and in hindsight, should have left the whole part about Muslims out. It didn't add to much to rest of the material, which, ironicaly, was about the dehellenization of Christianity in the West. If I didn't know any better, it almost sounded like the Pope is Orthodox...
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Wed, September 20, 2006 - 5:29 AMGood thing you know better.
The Orthodox have lived right next to Muslims for centuries, in some places there has been no conflict due to the Orthodox tradition of not shoving our ways down anyone's throat. We respect everyone, but we do not agree with everyone. We just keep our mouths shut and seek the Lord as the Fathers instruct us. It is not our business to seek "common ground" with anyone. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Wed, September 20, 2006 - 8:51 AMDid you read it? It's worth the 10 minutes. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Wed, September 20, 2006 - 11:08 AMI found this commentary on the Pope's lecture to be very interesting:
ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2006/...l.html
At first, it seemed a little over the top to me, but maybe not...
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Wed, September 20, 2006 - 4:56 PM??? The entire hisory of Byzantium was one long conflict with the Muslims and the Persians before them. I know of o situation where Christians were not opressed by their Muslim rulers. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, September 21, 2006 - 4:28 AMWell, one that I do know about is in the Balkans. The christians and moslems lived in peace for a good long time. Then, in the 1800's protestant "missionaries" came to the area. They told the moslems they were going to hell, and they told the orthodox that they weren't the right brand of christianity. It sparked rivalries, and you see the results today. But, they coexisted for quite a long time before that with no troubles. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Fri, September 22, 2006 - 3:19 PMHow did it spark rivalries?
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Wed, November 29, 2006 - 3:33 PMdo we really care what he Pope says?
what he does or does not say has no impact whatsoever... as much as he sounds like Orthodox... he is not... enuff said
Fr Seraphim Rose would have been a better read... -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 12:45 PMThe Ecumenical Patriarch cares enough to meet with him today. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 3:09 PMthere is only one church... that is the Orthodox church... no priest outside the church can be called a priest... i would think that the Patricarch met the Pope not as the Pope... but as he would meet other dignitaries...
Frankly why would anyone bother with the POPE... he is the greatest sinner on earth... leading all the poor RC's into the wrong path... -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 3:15 PMWow. I don't think I've ever had contact with someon like you outside of evangelicals. Scary. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 4:34 PMecumenism is the greatest dangers ORthodoxy can ever face... so one should be careful not to fall into its trap... I WAS FOR the confluence of religions but as one explores the techings of the church fathers... i realize how dangerous it is to be accepting the other religions... and I include RC and P into this fold...
if there is Christianity there can not be anyother religion
if there are other religions there can never be Christianity...
if you are Christian... there can only be one Church and that is Orthodoxy... period...
perhaps you can read Father Seraphim Rose... you will see why i adopt this view... -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 6:54 PMOh? Non Salvorum Ex Ecclesium? Well of course it is dangeous to be accepting of other religions there is the chance to find value in them.
As I have mentioned before there are numerous brnaches of christianity that date to the apostles and there once were more. I also find it hard to believe that the worlds religions are so bereft of truth as to challenge the validity of Christianity.
I'm sure you have your reasons. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 8:21 PM
tis not that per chance we find value in them... been there done that... they are bereft of value... i agree that there once were more than a path... BUT this is THE path... that is most proper and right... no one can tell you which is right or worng.. you have to feel it yourself... but i have felt them all... and this is the most complete... most proper... and most right... it performs all aspects of what it teaches in all that it does... :)
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Fri, December 1, 2006 - 6:58 PM...that's what I was thinking, too...
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Fri, December 1, 2006 - 7:03 PMSperio: So... Eastern Catholics (who are also under the pope to a more limited extent because he is not Bishop of Rome to them) are sinner's going down the wrong path, eh? I think I saw something similar to that on the Evangelical Bible channel... hmm...
It is a sin, methinks, to cause derision and division instead of unity in God's Church. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 7:24 AMYou have to understand that it's pretty useless to make such an argument, since the orthodox church has had a very clear idea of its identity as the one true church since ancient times. If the orthodox were to concede to the branch theory, that would mean to them that the holy fathers were all idiots, that many of the martyrs died for nothing, that the careful attempts to preserve orthodox doctrine and apostolic succession were a waste of time and energy. If evangelicals make the same claims of true christianity, that does not automatically mean that anyone who makes the claim are wrong- that's a fallacy I think. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 12:34 PMA person can have some truth and not be an idiot. They can make mistakes and not be fools. And as for martyrs my church has them in abundance. While the Orthodox hierarchy was kissing the KGB's ass the KGB was out killing off Eastern Catholic bishops. The whole claim to "true christianity" is a logical nightmare and an argument that nearly all denominations make or have made in their history. Define "ancient times" ... Nicea? Chalcedon? Jerusalem? last week? What gives one moment in history precedence over the other? The Gnostics have maintained that they are the one true church for a very very long time. What about the Mormons I hear they recieved magic spectacles and some gold dishes not to mention those mystical underwear.
The above arguement is perfectly valid. It is useless to make against someone who is certain they are right because any arguement is useless to make against such a person. The Fathers had many choice wods for arrogance adn I can't help but wonder whether or not this is the cause of the choice of paving materials for the road to hell. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 6:28 PMThe Roman Catholic Church (along with the uniates affiliated to it) also teaches it's the one true church. I'm not denying that any church making such a claim is problematic, but the point is there's no way around it- you might as well start a new church, because the branch theory will gain no real traction within the Catholic's church's teaching without major schism ensuing. If you adhere to the branch theory, you are heretical from the point of view of your own church. Is this approach stupid? Narrow-minded? Historically suspect? Sure, but that's the way it is. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 9:29 PMWell of course I'm a heretic. Have you looked at my profile? That doesn't mean I don't find value in my church's teaching merely that I disagree with it. Which is what a heretic is really. Why would I reinvent the wheel when I can ust increase the diameter and maybe add some better spokes? The branch theory gained traction in the Roman Catholic Chruch ; we call it Protestantism. I just have more patience with my narrow minded church ; it's like having a parent you repect even though they are abusive and foul tempered at times. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sun, December 3, 2006 - 2:31 PMIf you feel comfortable stay in a church where your own perspective is suppressed, and where you cannot participate fully in sacramental life, without hiding something in confession, that's fine. It's ridiculous though to come on a tribe for discussing orthodox spirituality and deride orthodox christians for expressing orthodox sentiments. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sun, December 3, 2006 - 3:50 PMFirst I believe it says eastern Christian spirituality which asshole conservatives do not have sole claim to ; you are confusing orthodox and exclusionist / xenophobic conservativism. Second I can participate in "sacramental life" if I want to; generally I choose not to support the chuch in that way as a matter of protest; fyi there are plenty of very liberal priests out there that are more than willing to inore the mutterings of the hierarchy so if I wanted to I could "participate fully".. Third I'm not derriding, I'm challenging some fairly disturbing sentiments. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Mon, December 4, 2006 - 11:11 AMYo hommies! This post has taken a most un-Orthodox turn.
I have read some Serphim Rose - it was good, but of course he has not been sainted yet, and his writings are still surround by controversy. I do try to read a lot from many sources, from ancient to modern. My comments about what the Pope said were just a point of interest. Current events. I didn't intend on creating some sort of debate on the ONE CHURCH. NOBODY here has the right to say where the Church is not, so be careful whom you condem. That's not for us to decide.
I'm no Ecumenist, but for the most part I tend to side with blessed father Alexander Men who was martyrd by the KGB, in that good/pious people can be found everywhere - not just in Orthodoxy.
"mystical underwear"??? I have some with holes in them - does that make them Holy?:):):) -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Tue, December 5, 2006 - 8:24 AMBrethren, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions
and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us
have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should
restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be
tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 1:37 PMBUT if you were read the church fathers from then hence to this time forth... you can see that they ARE not wrong and it is complete... through all their instances the church fathers are performing what they are preaching...
orthodoxy is most philosophcally complete
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 8:49 AMyes of course... they still recognize the papacy's rule... there is really no need for eastern rites catholic... they should make up their mind if they want to come back into the fold or go down the wrong path...
there is only one church... and that is the Orthodox way... there REALLY is no other way... the protestants were breaking off from the wrong tree... from the catholic tree... they are actually looking to come home to Orthodoxy but they do not know how... they cannot let go of their ego to recognize that they have been wrong all along....
once you have attended a lithurgy...you will realize that NO OTHER SERVICE has the essense of the trinity... it just does not work... no matter where u attend the lithurgy in whateer country or whatever language... IT ALL FEELS THE SAME... THE SAME COMPLETENESS and SPIRIT is felt :)
easter rites was done out of political neccessity... now that the political threat is gone... it should be done away too
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The Eastern Catholic Churches are autonomous particular Churches in full communion with the Pope of Rome. Distinct from the Western Church, these Churches worship according to Eastern Christian liturgical rites. Historically, these Churches were located in Eastern Europe, the Asian Middle East, Northern Africa and India, but are now also found in many parts of the world, with most of them having ecclesiastical structures, alongside the Latin Rite dioceses, in North and South America and in Australia. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 12:25 PMSpecial. I can only hope that you are a convert. Then you might have some excuse. As to the Eastern Catholic Churches I would point out that they have faced persecution from nearly every other denomnation on earth including the Orthodox. You might be chagrined to know that our history of martys by kind hearted Orthodox is rather long as well. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 1:31 PMthe eastern rites were not wrong then when it was borned out of political neccessity... but they certainly are NOW when such political forces are gone... just the same way Russian church in america is going back to moscow... uniates should decide where they want to go... they should not exist... simple as that
perhaps you might want to explain more about the excuse? -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 9:44 PMThe excuse is that if you are a convert you have the luxury of being certain. People born into the Eastern Churches do not claim that they are perfect , or philisophically superior or any of that; you take the Church as she is with all the human traits, drunken prests, power mad bishops, and wretched historical occurences that go with her. I don't defend the existence of my Church it has as much a right to exist as any other religion and visca versa. What the blood of the faithful has bought you would dismiss as indecisive.
The excuse is that a convert has the ability to be enchanted by a religion. They can ignore the stagnation in favor of the bells and incense, dismiss the misogyny and cultural superiority complex as being sympoms of having found the truth. When you are born into the religion you know that Mrs. X has been denied communion for 20 years because she divorced her husband who beat the hell out of her and that she is practically a saint. You know that Mr. Z is gayer than Christmas but is the trustee and lives with his cousin "" and they throw really good parties. You know that the Vladiko is importing priests from the old country because therre hasn't been a native vocation in six years.
Converts get to ignore all these things because culture and religon are not bound together for them. I could spend the rest of my days going to an Episcopalean Church hat accepted me and my beliefs and not be any less Greek Catholic, it's part of who and what I am as much as my blood. A convert is Orthodox based on a rational thought or a choice I'm Greek Catholic based on the fact that I exist. A convert gets to pick and chose what to believe while a person born into a faith has to choose what not to believe in
So the excuse is that if you are a convert you might just be delusional from your conversion exprience and not a bigot. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sun, December 3, 2006 - 1:45 AMi am probably a bigot then... :) -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sun, December 3, 2006 - 9:21 AMI figured but was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Oh well makes me glad I'm not Orthodox.
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Sat, December 2, 2006 - 1:34 PMi have been to the rural churches in JOrdan... the main monastery in dibbin... even to the the church where st. john is laying...
the FEEL is very similar... you cannot get that with any OTHER denomination.... their feel is so wide varying...
the only time i could feel god in a catholic church was in the chapel in STANFORD... but that was not during their service... -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, December 14, 2006 - 3:59 PMFolks, let's be frank here; For any of us to say the Lord only accepts Orthodox Christians is the height of pride, and pride goes before the fall.
My spiritual father says, we know where the church is, but we do not know where the church is not, meaning we know our Orthodox way is right, but we cannot say much about anybody else's way, that is for God to judge and not us.
For my part, one of the great reliefs of becomming Orthodox was that I could stop debating with other churches, and just wish them well. I hope God DOES accept them, but I'm not going to turn from what I know to be truth to sample their ways. But, we should hope that they are acceptable. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and we should not either. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Thu, December 14, 2006 - 4:25 PMAMEN... you are right... pride goes before the fall... you are the wisest here :)
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Fri, December 15, 2006 - 7:27 AMI don't mind being Frank at all! What you say goes to the heart of the matter. -
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Re: Regenberg lecture by Pope
Fri, December 15, 2006 - 3:44 PM
Ha ha! Always the kidder.
Seriously, though, I agree with what has been said here. Let's not allow ourselves to believe we know what is in God's heart. None of us knows who is saved and who is not.
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